[lunapark]

The system is finally playing.

Anyone who ever had any doubts about the Pioneer Shallow mount subs can put them to rest. If you remember the earlier posts, we have 4 in the car, two on each side in fiberglass enclosures. Each pair is getting 700 watts from a pair of JBL PBX 500.1 These subs will HURT YOU.

Yesterday in testing it did not matter what we through at it, from sir mix a lot to Nickleback and that was with the volume at about 40% with the gains down.

They are extremely deceiving.

As a former Sound Quality judge for IASCA for 6 years, I am more than qualified to speak on this. I am not selling for Pioneer by any means, But wasting time and money on a larger subwoofer is just that. A waste of time and money.

The entire system consists of the factory head unit feeding a Clean Sweep from JL Audio. That goes to a Audio Control DQXS. The DQXS feeds a JBL PBX 300.4 that gives 123 watts each to each tweeter and each woofer. The front stage is a set of Pioneer TS-C720PRS The subs are the Pioneer TS-SW1041D their are 4 that are fed by a pair of JBL PBX 500.1's each amp is connected to one TSUNAMI 40 Farad Cap and then connected to the STOCK BATTERY if you believe that. Battery upgrade is coming.

Tuning is needed but for sheer effect, the system is unbelievable.

 

[Ross]

How long do you figure it took (man-hours) once you got evreything thing out of the way?

 

[lunapark]

How long do you figure it took (man-hours) once you got evreything thing out of the way?

Fiberglass enclosures, Installing 4 10's in enclosures Installing Door Speakers 1.5 Day
Hooking up Cleansweep and building amp rack 1 Day
Running wiring and interconnects and power 1 Day

 

[tfar]

So you are saying in man hours: 2 people at 8 hours per day each? That would be 54 man hours.

 

[lunapark]

So you are saying in man hours: 2 people at 8 hours per day each? That would be 54 man hours.

I would agree with that

The was a set of separates, 4 subs, 1 40 farad cap, 2 processors(cleansweep and Audio Control, and 3 amps.

 

[Ross]

I would agree with that

The was a set of separates, 4 subs, 1 40 farad cap, 2 processors(cleansweep and Audio Control, and 3 amps.

Have the stereo already in but leaning towards your idea, which is great by the way.

Thanks.

 

[ungo4]

Bryan(lunapark) is a little decieving in his post about these subs. When we first really got on the system I was amazed at the sheer amount of volume and clarity at the same time. I've been in this game a long time and this was suprising even to me. I know we can easily go over 140db with no problems. The best part is having all this sound and opening the trunk and not having any speakers back there.:secret:

 

[Nitefall]

Do you happen to have any pics of the install and where you placed everything?

 

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Do you happen to have any pics of the install and where you placed everything?

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102236

 

[lunapark]

Do you happen to have any pics of the install and where you placed everything?

My method of installation is a little different than the norm. We have the amps batter, 40 Farad Cap and Audio Control processor installed in a temporary setting in the trunk. The amps are in a more permanent place, but I am still working out the little qwerks. There is some engine noise that is not coming from the front of the car. If you unplug the RCA's from the JL clean sweep, the noise is still there. I am still goofing around with the stock battery, that I am replacing today. I am not convinced on the Clean Sweep piece yet, But I have not given up on it either.

The system will flat our hurt you. It has incredible volume and headroom. For me to say that it is intense says a lot based on what I have heard. By no means would I say it is the best I have ever heard, the system is still flat, and untuned. I didnt want to spend any time on it with the noise in the system.

I will keep everyone posted on my progress.

Bryan

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

I'm considering something simmilar.

I'm curious to find out how it turns out firing subs right into the side panel, I would think the panel would rattle/buzz like a mother at key freqs.

It seems as if you could care less if theres any opening or port to get into the car.

Also, if you fire identical waves into each other (facing each other from each side) - don't you loose output since the waves would cancel each other out somewhat? (2 opposing waves sum 0)

Sorry if my questions seem stupid, I'm no pro installer, just tryin to gather as much knowledge before the install.

ShadesOfGrey

 

[lunapark]

I'm considering something simmilar.

I'm curious to find out how it turns out firing subs right into the side panel, I would think the panel would rattle/buzz like a mother at key freqs.

It seems as if you could care less if theres any opening or port to get into the car.

Also, if you fire identical waves into each other (facing each other from each side) - don't you loose output since the waves would cancel each other out somewhat? (2 opposing waves sum 0)

Sorry if my questions seem stupid, I'm no pro installer, just tryin to gather as much knowledge before the install.

ShadesOfGrey

No question is a stupid question.

Lets try and answer some of these for you.

1. Subs firing at each other.
The only way that the sub frequency would cancel each other would be is one pair of the subs were wired out of phase with the other side. If you shop around enough, you can find some prefab sub boxes, that have a left and right sub that fire into a center chamber and the center chamber is ported. This is not exactly the same thing, but you probably get the point.

2. No Port needed for subs. Let me explain why.
Lets say the GTO is not your first car or first stereo adventure with subs. Certainly you have had subs in the trunk before. Did you port them into the interior. If not the answer is no. People mount subs in the trunk all the time and the bass carries to the front of the car with no problem. The reason is because of the length and frequency of the sub bass. Now when subs are in the trunk you normally are having to deal with a rear deck made of metal, and the rear seats that are normally made in two different ways. One would be a fold down seat, that has a steel backing stuffed with foam, or just a regular seat with about 6" of foam. With the subs mounts in the side panels, we are talking about a piece of plastic and leather less than 1/8" thick.

I am hear to tell you, the subs are getting 700 watts per side. The system at 50% volume will HURT YOU. This is a kind of bass that I am not used to from a level perspective. I am not kidding. The system can put out more than 140db. With the right tracks it is very intense. Way more than I would have ever expected from these subs. When friends of mine listen to it and they ask me to turn it up, everyone jumps and give me this OMG look and want to know where the subs are. Now hear is the really wierd part. 1st I do not play it that loud. I like my hearing. (What was that!!!), Just kidding, from a imaging stand point. something really odd is happening with this system that I did not expect. The mids are 6.75". and with the subs firing from the side panels, the subs sound like they are coming from the front of the car not the rear like they would with a rear mounted sub. This is a good thing, and I hope after tuning it stays that way.

Hope all of this helps.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Do the side panels vibrate or buzz? Did you do anything to them to help minimize this?

The subs are out of phase from each other as soon as you physically mount them opposing each other. Correct? Altho in the confines of the car cabin, this most likely is more of an added 'cabin pressure' effect - but theoretically they are physically out of phase.

The imaging issue you mention is pretty interesting, desired even.

It seems you would highly suggest this setup.

Perhaps 1 10 or 12 in each side instead of 2? (I don't need organ splitting bass, altho its tempting.) I do want tight, clean, bass, which I don't think I could accomplish doing the 2 8w0's in the shelf.

Also, I have to assume imaging is much better w/ the subs in the side and coaxials in the shelf.

Just to bounce my plans off you:

I have a complete Pioneer Z1 w/ bluetooth, ipodII, XM/navtraffic

Plans are to use 2 Alpine PDX 4.150 amps, one for the 4 cabin speakers, one bridged for the subs. (Nice and small for easy fit in the trunk)

Front speakers: JL ZR650-CSi 2-Way Component System
Rear Speakers: JL XR650-CXi Coaxials

Was going to put the coaxials in the rear sides, and do the JL 8w0's in the rear shelf, but now i'm considering putting the coaxials in the rear shelf and doing the low profile pioneers in the sides as in your install. But I don't want to cut into the side panels and was concerned with them buzzing / vibrating from the subs.

Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated.

ShadesOfGrey

Pics Below:

 

[tfar]

Shades, looks like a very upper end system. Check out my install here
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101731

I use one 10" CDT EF-100 sub in each side panel. Coax in the parcel shelf and 7" based components in the doors. No rattle whatsoever even at high levels from the side panels, or anything else in the car for that matter. With the correct phase adjustment (of sub to front speakers) it does seem in 95% of the cases that the bass is coming from the front. I believe a large part of that is that the 7 inchers go quite nicely down to 65Hz. They did fit just so. If you wanted to go 8" in the front, which would be nice perhaps, I assume you'd start modding the door panel.

Till

 

[lunapark]

Do the side panels vibrate or buzz? Did you do anything to them to help minimize this?

The subs are out of phase from each other as soon as you physically mount them opposing each other. Correct? Altho in the confines of the car cabin, this most likely is more of an added 'cabin pressure' effect - but theoretically they are physically out of phase.

The imaging issue you mention is pretty interesting, desired even.

It seems you would highly suggest this setup.

Perhaps 1 10 or 12 in each side instead of 2? (I don't need organ splitting bass, altho its tempting.) I do want tight, clean, bass, which I don't think I could accomplish doing the 2 8w0's in the shelf.

Also, I have to assume imaging is much better w/ the subs in the side and coaxials in the shelf.

Just to bounce my plans off you:

I have a complete Pioneer Z1 w/ bluetooth, ipodII, XM/navtraffic

Plans are to use 2 Alpine PDX 4.150 amps, one for the 4 cabin speakers, one bridged for the subs. (Nice and small for easy fit in the trunk)

Front speakers: JL ZR650-CSi 2-Way Component System
Rear Speakers: JL XR650-CXi Coaxials

Was going to put the coaxials in the rear sides, and do the JL 8w0's in the rear shelf, but now i'm considering putting the coaxials in the rear shelf and doing the low profile pioneers in the sides as in your install. But I don't want to cut into the side panels and was concerned with them buzzing / vibrating from the subs.

Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated.

ShadesOfGrey

Pics Below:

Here's my take.

Firing the subs at each other does not put them out of phase. You have to wire them out of phase to do that. Had the Z1 and sold it. Not saying anything is wrong with it, it just did not suit my needs. I am a audiophile and the Z1 did not offer the flexibility I wanted but all in all it is a great head unit.

In my opinion, the metal dome tweeter is too bright. With the tweeters being mounted in the dash and firing off the windshield, you will know they are there and probably would better suited to use a silk tweeter.

I have not heard any rattling coming from the panels. As far as 2 instead of 4. I prefer 4. In what other car can you install 4 10" subs and they be completely out of sight

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

The speakers I was considering before the JL's were:

Front: Focal 165 K2P

Rear: Focal 165 CV1 (In side panels)

But, now if I move the subs to the side panels, these may even fit in the rear shelf:

Focal 210 CV1

Which could be interesting.

PS, the Pioneer shallow mounts in the sides are my primary sub choice now.

Dammit man, your costin me money!

ShadesOfGrey

 

[tfar]

The Focal have Titanium Oxide tweeters. They are very good but I find them still a bit on the bright side. It would be very beneficial to have parametric EQ and know how to use it when you install those.

I second Bryan's recommendation for silk tweeters. Dynaudio and CDT have those in the same price range as Focal. Morel should also have silk tweeters. I have heard Dynaudio and CDT. Wanted Dynaudio but the system would have been difficult to install and I wanted to try CDT's Upstage system. In this kind of set-up you use a component or coaxial speaker (mid + tweet) in the stock door location PLUS an additional tweeter in the A-pillar firing across the windshield, not towards you. It works like a charm; I swear. Wasn't even very difficult to get the staging right.

You could install a Dynaudio System 240GT as someone else has done. Mid in the door and tweet in A-pillar. Dynaudio and Morel have the reputation of being on the mellow side or let's say the tweeter is not artificially hot to make you think it's super detailed.

It all depends also on what you are used to but if you have good ears and good listener education you might prefer a slightly softer sound; especially in the car where there is so much noise going on anyway.

Till

 

[lunapark]

The Focal have Titanium Oxide tweeters. They are very good but I find them still a bit on the bright side. It would be very beneficial to have parametric EQ and know how to use it when you install those.

I second Bryan's recommendation for silk tweeters. Dynaudio and CDT have those in the same price range as Focal. Morel should also have silk tweeters. I have heard Dynaudio and CDT. Wanted Dynaudio but the system would have been difficult to install and I wanted to try CDT's Upstage system. In this kind of set-up you use a component or coaxial speaker (mid + tweet) in the stock door location PLUS an additional tweeter in the A-pillar firing across the windshield, not towards you. It works like a charm; I swear. Wasn't even very difficult to get the staging right.

You could install a Dynaudio System 240GT as someone else has done. Mid in the door and tweet in A-pillar. Dynaudio and Morel have the reputation of being on the mellow side or let's say the tweeter is not artificially hot to make you think it's super detailed.

It all depends also on what you are used to but if you have good ears and good listener education you might prefer a slightly softer sound; especially in the car where there is so much noise going on anyway.

Till

Till,

Let me add to that.

I am probably going to upset someone, but I feel I must share. From a strictly Sound Quality standpoint, The french dont get it (Focal). I have judged way too many cars, and its ok stuff, but way too much hype. Especailly when you compare them to the Danish, Norwiegians, and Germans. Diamond Audio, MB Quart, Morel, Dynaudio all have their place. Dynaudio really has never been able to get the mids or the car audio tweeter right, Their midbass and soft dome midrnage is something else. I would put them at the top of the food chain. Quart and Diamond both german designs get it done in the midrange section only because a/d/s has left the game. They were german design as well. I have heard some really good Moral cars, but again it is all in the execution.
I even saw a car where the guy had taken apart a set of $7000 B&W home speakers and installed them in the car. The drivers that is.

Anything with a paper cone will sound better, than fiberglass or polypropolene.
Anyone reading this, dont get caught up in the hype, You can make any speaker sound good. The key is how good was it before you started messing with the system.

With my current setup, I went with the pioneer for two reasons. One the subs are awesome in any book. For their size vs what they put out and the quality they put out. #2, the PRS702CS, the front stage, I was experimenting. THe set comes with a big softdome tweeter and a 6 3/4 midrange. Way bigger than I would ever recommend for a front stage and the jury is still out, but initial listening shows this to be a really well built and excellent sounding set of speakers.

Happy Tuning.

 

[Ross]

Till,

Let me add to that.

I am probably going to upset someone, but I feel I must share. From a strictly Sound Quality standpoint, The french dont get it (Focal). I have judged way too many cars, and its ok stuff, but way too much hype. Especailly when you compare them to the Danish, Norwiegians, and Germans. Diamond Audio, MB Quart, Morel, Dynaudio all have their place. Dynaudio really has never been able to get the mids or the car audio tweeter right, Their midbass and soft dome midrnage is something else. I would put them at the top of the food chain. Quart and Diamond both german designs get it done in the midrange section only because a/d/s has left the game. They were german design as well. I have heard some really good Moral cars, but again it is all in the execution.
I even saw a car where the guy had taken apart a set of $7000 B&W home speakers and installed them in the car. The drivers that is.

Anything with a paper cone will sound better, than fiberglass or polypropolene.
Anyone reading this, dont get caught up in the hype, You can make any speaker sound good. The key is how good was it before you started messing with the system.

Happy Tuning.

I have found the samething about the Focal.

One thing too, I am sure you realize, sometimes there is a degree of luck.

I had a set of 6.5" Diamond coaxials in the rear doors of a Durango, they sounded absolutely awsome, like a set of 8's. A same model set were put into the doors of a friend's 96 Ram, sounded like a cheap beer fest going on in those doors. Never could get them as good as the D's.

Then there was the vette with DynAudios installed, just plain awsome with almost no tuning required.

 

[lunapark]

I have found the samething about the Focal.

One thing too, I am sure you realize, sometimes there is a degree of luck.

I had a set of 6.5" Diamond coaxials in the rear doors of a Durango, they sounded absolutely awsome, like a set of 8's. A same model set were put into the doors of a friend's 96 Ram, sounded like a cheap beer fest going on in those doors. Never could get them as good as the D's.

Then there was the vette with DynAudios installed, just plain awsome with almost no tuning required.

I know what you mean, but I would almost bet, that it is the acoustics of the car and the quality of the baffle that cause that. If you have ever worked on older cars, its like mounting a 6X9 in the rear deck of a GM car, That produced a lot of bass and it really didnt matter what kind of speaker it was or which GM car.

I remember Focal coming on the scene, and people had just lost their minds. I dont know what it was, but it was not the sound.