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Has stiffer springs
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, guys.

I'm thinking seriously of wet-sanding the GTO to reduce the orange peel.

My inspiration is this photograph:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18736&d=1085282776

from this posting:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=29237

These videos are useful too:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/thread/11996.aspx

I have found a virtually indefinite source of panels to practice upon, namely
dumpster-diving at the local body shop. I'm in no particular hurry - lots of
practice then a few hours in the evenings a few days a week. If it takes
twice as long with a finer-than-needed cutting compound then that's OK by me.

My problem is that I am unsure which buffing machine I should use, which pads
I should use and which compounds. The sanding paper is easy because it uses
nice numbered grades, but there seems to be no standardization in the
compounds and everyone calls it stupid names like "Meguires's number 83".

I'm happy to drop a big order on the Tropi-Care guys, but I'm not sure if they
have everything I'll need?

My questions are:

a) Is the Porter Cable 7424 suitable for all of this job?

b) Which pads should I use, and how many of each am I likely to need?

c) The rx8club.com article indicates that two post-sanding buffing passes will
be needed: one with a foam cutting pad and Meguiars #83 and one with a foam
polishing pad and "3M Perfect-it foam polishing pad glaze part #05996". Do
Tropi-Care have equivalents to these pads and compounds, and if so what are
they?

d) Would I need a counterweight for the PC 7424 (if that is the appropriate
machine)?

e) What did I miss? ;)

Thanks!
 

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Quest for 10's Continues!
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3,561 Posts
I can't answer much of what you asked about wet-sanding whereas I am new to detailing for the most part. But in that thread the guy appeared to use a Rotary buffer/polisher which is more powerful than the Porter Cable and also takes more time to learn, but if you have that time more power to ya.

From what I have been reading, the GTO's clear coat is soft as heck and can easily be burned through with the improper use of a rotary buffer.

Check out Autopia.com for tons of tips on detailing. There are a few guys here that will be able to help as well.

Be careful and good luck!

The PC 7424 is a great machine for buffing/polishing. You should be able to get out most any fine scratches, swirl marks etc with it assuming you have the correct pad and compound. I am awaiting an order from Meguiar's myself actually.... I have some of the Mirror Glaze line on it's way, including #83 which is a 6/10 abrasive swirl cutter which I will use with a yellow cutting pad, then will go over again with a finishing pad white in this case with #80 or Tropi-care TC-8 swirl cutter.
That's my plan of attack on swirl marks and minor surface leveling, or as far as I will probably take it anyhow. I don't think I will take it as far as orange peel....

Since I just got into this, I started out with Tropi-care's PC 7424 package, since then I have ordered 2 white polishing pads, 2 yellow cutting pads and 2 red polishing pads (noted for paste wax). I have been told though that you'll be hard pressed to see much of a difference between blue, red and gray pads.... I also ordered a bunch of micro fiber towel from Steve at Tropi-care and they are great. The Waffle weave is the best drying towel I have ever used, the MF towels are very plush and easy on the surface.

You will get the counterweight when ordering from Tropi-care... but in some opions it's not needed with the 6-6.5" pads.

Hope this helps!
 

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Thank you Holden!!!
Joined
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1,210 Posts
Hi, guys.

I'm thinking seriously of wet-sanding the GTO to reduce the orange peel.

My inspiration is this photograph:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18736&d=1085282776

from this posting:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=29237

These videos are useful too:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/thread/11996.aspx

I have found a virtually indefinite source of panels to practice upon, namely
dumpster-diving at the local body shop. I'm in no particular hurry - lots of
practice then a few hours in the evenings a few days a week. If it takes
twice as long with a finer-than-needed cutting compound then that's OK by me.

My problem is that I am unsure which buffing machine I should use, which pads
I should use and which compounds. The sanding paper is easy because it uses
nice numbered grades, but there seems to be no standardization in the
compounds and everyone calls it stupid names like "Meguires's number 83".

I'm happy to drop a big order on the Tropi-Care guys, but I'm not sure if they
have everything I'll need?

My questions are:

a) Is the Porter Cable 7424 suitable for all of this job?

b) Which pads should I use, and how many of each am I likely to need?

c) The rx8club.com article indicates that two post-sanding buffing passes will
be needed: one with a foam cutting pad and Meguiars #83 and one with a foam
polishing pad and "3M Perfect-it foam polishing pad glaze part #05996". Do
Tropi-Care have equivalents to these pads and compounds, and if so what are
they?

d) Would I need a counterweight for the PC 7424 (if that is the appropriate
machine)?

e) What did I miss? ;)

Thanks!

a)IMHO, that is not the machine you need. When wetsanding, you need a rotary buffer, not a dual action polisher, unless you have A LOT of time, and even then it may not look right.

b)I use a wool cutting pad and Mequir's Diamond cut compound for the first pass after wetsanding, then a 3M perfect it foam pad with their polish(not sure of the # or name), then start working with the PC

c and d)Not sure on the Tropi care stuff- call them, they will suggest their products better than anyone on here.

e) Lots of patience! If you are doing the whole car you will need lots of time, and be careful of edges and mouldings, this is where it is easy for the buffer, even a PC orbital, to catch and burn edges/mouldings. If you are not very experienced, tape up anything you can burn with the buffer. Also, don't use any less than about 2500 grit paper.
 

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2,124 Posts
I would stay away from wet sanding the GTO, especially if youre a novice.

Our surface thickness is a lot lower than most makes, it's one of those cars you need to live with the orange peel on. Our average paint depth is 105 microns.
 

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Just a Re-engineered Cavalier
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3,830 Posts
Advice - bring it to a profesional. The clear is a lot thinner on these cars than on most. On the detailing boards I am on, I have seen prof. detailers sand right through the clear on an '05 gto with only a few passes on 2000grit paper. If you still want to do it yourself, get ahold of some GTO panels (not regular car panels, but GTO panels so you are used to the clear) and practice wet sanding AND using a rotary and wool pads on these same wetsanded panels since you won't be able to take the wetsand marks out of the clear with a Portercable.

Also, go to autopia.org and read everything and anything you can on wetsanding, and finishing wetsanding down. It is a hell of a lot harder than it looks. I wouldn't touch your car until you have lots and lots of practice. Wouldn't want to see you coming into the thread with a nice picture of the primer spots all over your car.

Edit:
My questions are:

a)No, the porter cable will not be enough for wet sanding. It is great for regular polishing but will not handle wetsanding. You will spend days on one panel with a 14 stage buff if you are using the rotary.

b) Foam pads will not be enough, at least for the first pass. It is generally accepted that wool is need for the first cut after wetsanding. If you have a foam aggressive enough, you may be able to do it. However, using a rotary with foam in the hands of a novice is a recipie for disaster. Foam heats up the paint much faster than it would on a porter cable and much faster than woold does. Wool cuts faster and cooler than foam will on a rotary.

c) It is my opinion that 3M perfect it II is not very good. It has a lot of fillers in it which will hide your swirls and fine wetsanding lines and not actually remove them. I would look into Optimum line or Menzerna line for this. Meg's 83 is a good compound, and it could be finished out with 80 or 81 (I don't remember which one). I prefer Optimum though for longer work times. TC #* is a very good polish, and will work as a last step in the polish, but it is not aggressive enough to be a viable option on the 1st pass.

d) The counter wheight on there is enough for 6" pads. The PC doesn't have the balls to spin wool (6" or 8") so a rotary is your only option for wetsanding and using wool IMO.

e) I would really look into getting some GTO panels for practice. Do not just dive into this on your own. I have practiced a lot on a Mazda black hood that I got from a body shop. I have done all sorts of combonations. From using a 1000 grit and taking it out with black wool and really heavy compound to going to 2000 and taking it out with yellow foam and working it down from there. I have used every polish in the Menzerna and Optimum lines, use #83 and some pinnalce polishes, all sorts or wool and foam. I know what each will do in each situation. I will tell you from all the practice, it would still be about another year before I really felt confidinte in working on my own car. If you are going to attempt it, I would just be prepared to spend some money on at least having one section repainted.

Autopia has a section for regional detailers. You may be able to find a mobile detailer who will wetsand the car. I would not trust it to just "any" body shop. I have seen some disasters.
 

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If going the meguiars route, I would actually have on hand. #80, #83, #84, and #85.

First cut after the wet sand would be 84 or 85 depending on how deep, see how it works. Finish with 83. If marring exists, which it shouldnt if done right, pass over with #80. Lot of steps I know, but wet sanding isnt supposed to be easy.

I'd also have #7 on hand as well just to bring life back into the paint for extra pop, although it has no cutting abilities, its just a finishing oil.
 

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Of course #84 and #85 can only be used on a Rotary, not on a PC, and the same goes for wool pads.

They with wet sanding is practice practice practice before you do it on something that matters. Also ALWAYS do a test spot first to see your results before you spend the time and effort on the whole car just to do it again.
 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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667 Posts
This is what i do for a living. I will wet sand a whole car at a clients request because it is the ultimate detail that I offer. However, Ive been doing this for a long time and ive burnt through enough on practice to know why you burn and how to prevent. I can give you all the advice you need but I would have to say dont do it if you have not before.

Iam color sanding a 56 Noamd right now and I am charging a very reasonable $1700. Time taken is gonna be about 25-30 hours, just to give you an idea. I just finished the roof yesterday and it took me 2 full days.

I mean you have to tape off all areas that have edges and do them later, you have to go 3 stages in 500 increments of sanding grit. You then have to have suficient light to see your every move. You need varying wool pads with a rotary for 1st cutting... then more cutting with a softer foam pad, then swirl removing then final polishing.... most all with a rotary, only 1 stage do I complete with a DA.

This is an art not something you just pick up. If you really want to PM me and I can get you started with products etc... but you should practice for months befoe touching your car.

Here are some pics of a BMW I did.









 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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667 Posts
also you need pad sizes from 2 inch up to 7-8 inch.... I have like 25 pads in total. Its alot.
Its not just you skill sanding and polishing that you have to perfect its your EYE!!!. You HAVE to know what you are looking at. You could get done with an area and it looks great under garage light but then you get it out in the sun and you're like WTF!!!!:mad:
This is close to an exact science and I treat it as an art.

Be very careful.

If you wanna drive down here Ill do it for you. :)

Talk to DRAudio. he is up where you are too but he was down in LA. A couple months back he drove out here so I could teach him some stuff and I ended up sanding an area on his door that a dealer detailer buggered up. Thing is with GM clear is that its actually really easy to sand and cut cos its so soft but I think you know why that makes it very dangerous to attempt.

This will help too.
Paint has anywhere from 90-140 microns of paint. Lets say 110 on ours just as an EG. well lets say 40 is about the amount of micorns of clear you have to work with. Now done right, after a 2000 grit starting job, you should be down to about 35-30 microns. Not a whole lot less. but if you go to far you will go through 40 mics like butter.

Also remember, you do all your work with teh sand paper and make it as easy as possible with the rotary. Reason being: you are more likely to burn paint with a wool pad and cuttign compound than sand paper.

anyway.. PM me if you like.
 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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667 Posts
Advice - bring it to a profesional. The clear is a lot thinner on these cars than on most. On the detailing boards I am on, I have seen prof. detailers sand right through the clear on an '05 gto with only a few passes on 2000grit paper. If you still want to do it yourself, get ahold of some GTO panels (not regular car panels, but GTO panels so you are used to the clear) and practice wet sanding AND using a rotary and wool pads on these same wetsanded panels since you won't be able to take the wetsand marks out of the clear with a Portercable.


c) It is my opinion that 3M perfect it II is not very good. It has a lot of fillers in it which will hide your swirls and fine wetsanding lines and not actually remove them. I would look into Optimum line or Menzerna line for this. Meg's 83 is a good compound, and it could be finished out with 80 or 81 (I don't remember which one). I prefer Optimum though for longer work times. TC #* is a very good polish, and will work as a last step in the polish, but it is not aggressive enough to be a viable option on the 1st pass.
what are you taLking about FILLERS???? 3M compounds and Perfect it does NOT hide scrathes, it removes them. Not sure how you could have come to this understanding??!!!!???!. It doesnt work for first stages of cutting after color sanding but its a great first stage cut for a less aggressive detail.

And if a "PRO" burnt through a hood on a GTO with 2000 grit I would call him..... not a pro.
 

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Has stiffer springs
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4,875 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks everyone - what a wonderful response. Although not exactly confidence-inspiring!

I guess I'll do the wife's $1500 minivan first, see how that turns out and then make
a decision.

ausstar, that old BMW looks amazing.

A couple of supplemental questions, please:

a) The Meguires guy says "just don't do the plastic bits". This surprises me - I'd have thought that (say) the GTO bumper could be done as successfully as the steel panels. Overheating might be more of a problem due to lower thermal conductivity, I guess. What's the scoop?

b) By far the most orange-peeled panel on my GTO is the spoiler. It also has nasty bends and corners, of course. Would it be sensible/possible to add some additional clearcoat to the spoiler before sanding? Take it off the car and go at it with a rattle-can?

c) If you sand through the clear but not the basecoat, is it repairable without respraying the basecoat? Or does the now-buffed-or-sanded basecoat come out looking funny once it is re-cleared?

Thanks!
 

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Just a Re-engineered Cavalier
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what are you taLking about FILLERS???? 3M compounds and Perfect it does NOT hide scrathes, it removes them. Not sure how you could have come to this understanding??!!!!???!. It doesnt work for first stages of cutting after color sanding but its a great first stage cut for a less aggressive detail.
I'm not retarded, I have been doing this long enough to know what stage to use what polishes. I used some perfect it on the hood of my car. Blue EDGE pad, rotary on at about ~1600 rpm. ISO wipe down, back it into the sun, wow, swirls are still there, havn't chnaged at all. Do this two more times (with pad and machine changes), nothing changes in the paint. Back it into the sun before ISO wipe down third time, swirls are gone, or so we thought. ISO wipe down in the sun, swirls are back. Quantim0 was working on my car with me, and we came to that conclusion. Maybe we had a bad batch, who knows. It wasn't our first time polishing so it wasn't user error. If you like 3m, shit, keep using it. I don't like it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I use products that are better IMO so I will use them.

And if a "PRO" burnt through a hood on a GTO with 2000 grit I would call him..... not a pro.
I never said he was a pro wetsander. Hell, I never said he was good. You do detailing for a living, your profession, there for I would call you a profesional detailer. Doesn't mean your any good, doesn't mean that guy was any good. Calm down.
 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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667 Posts
I'm not retarded, I have been doing this long enough to know what stage to use what polishes. I used some perfect it on the hood of my car. Blue EDGE pad, rotary on at about ~1600 rpm. ISO wipe down, back it into the sun, wow, swirls are still there, havn't chnaged at all. Do this two more times (with pad and machine changes), nothing changes in the paint. Back it into the sun before ISO wipe down third time, swirls are gone, or so we thought. ISO wipe down in the sun, swirls are back. Quantim0 was working on my car with me, and we came to that conclusion. Maybe we had a bad batch, who knows. It wasn't our first time polishing so it wasn't user error. If you like 3m, shit, keep using it. I don't like it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I use products that are better IMO so I will use them.
I never said he was a pro wetsander. Hell, I never said he was good. You do detailing for a living, your profession, there for I would call you a profesional detailer. Doesn't mean your any good, doesn't mean that guy was any good. Calm down.
hey bud... not sure why you got so defensive.... I think you overread my comments. I was really asking what you meant by Fillers???
Perfect it is a broad range of product .. are you talking about the Trizact 3000??? Thats the one you use with the blue waffle pad but thats specifically a final stage polish after you use your swirl remover. Its teh best final polish I have ever used. I like it at about 1200-1500rpm on the rotary. a lot of times ill go 2 stages on a black car with a cut and a swirl remover with the DA and there are stil some hair lines. The Trizact removes them completely but its not meant for anything more. What you saw was the smearing of the polish maybe... not sure. I know what you mean though.

I know both of your skills in detailing well enough to know you are both very good at it, so dont assume you are hearing one thing when thats not what im saying ok mate!!!! And it looks like you said "PROF detailer" in your 1st post burnt through the hood of a GTO...?? my bad if I miss-read. Oh and im always calm:stormtrooper:
 

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Quest for 10's Continues!
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3,561 Posts
I'm glad to see that you guys showed up.... Ausstar, PhantomGoat06 and greg'sgoat. It's nice to see that the reading I have done has paid of even if it was only slight.

Thanks again all for enlightening us on such topics with your vast knowledge of the Profession! Now I really can't wait until my Meguiar's order shows up!!
 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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667 Posts
I'm glad to see that you guys showed up.... Ausstar, PhantomGoat06 and greg'sgoat. It's nice to see that the reading I have done has paid of even if it was only slight.

Thanks again all for enlightening us on such topics with your vast knowledge of the Profession! Now I really can't wait until my Meguiar's order shows up!!
I know... its pretty cool huh. There are a lot of guys on here that do this for a living or obsessive hobbying. ive been doing this for a long time and im constantly adapting my methods to make it easier and faster. Ill admit ive taken some smarts from all these guys like Phantom, Quantim, Greg, Sooner and there a lot more... its another great thing about this forum.
 

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Just a Re-engineered Cavalier
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Has stiffer springs
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Discussion Starter #18
Well I did the top part of the spoiler. It was quite easy and I shall complete the car.


The spoiler is not perfect - there's still a little orange peel there but it's a nasty panel:
lots of sharp corners and the whole dang thing is concave. It used to be my worst panel
and you can see that it is now much better than my previously-best panel, the trunk.

I'll probably revisit the spoiler at some stage and sand it a bit more. I decided to
stop sanding it at that point because I wanted to go on to buffing to make sure
that I had the whole process sorted out.

I do all the sanding with 2500 grit. (The 3000 grit hasn't arrived yet - Meguires is slooooow) I do
all the buffing with the Porter Cable Dual-Action: no rotary. It takes a long time, but that's
OK. There's a direct tradeoff between speed and risk here, and taking a lot of time to get
a good result suits me, as I'll probably only be doing one car in my lifetime.

I think I've developed some really good tricks and techniques for this project - I'll do a full
writeup at a later date.

Immediate braindump:

- Plan to do two to four sanding passes. Between each one, give it a quick whizz in a test patch
with the rubbing compound to give it a bit of a shine so that you can inspect how much
orange peel remains.

- Stopping sanding whan all the "valleys" have gone matte is not enough: there's still orange peel

- I deliberately sanded through the clear on my test panel (a Prius rear door). With the 2500
paper, this took an astonishing amount of sanding. Like, pressing hard on just the one spot
and scrubbing madly for five minutes. This has given me great confidence because it doesn't
take anything like as much sanding as this to 100% eliminate the orange peel.

- Between sanding passes, dry the job off and then mark all the spots which you
need to revisit with a sharpie. It's much easier than having to remember where those
seven or eight dodgy bits are.

- For final inspection, turn off all the lights in the room and use a flashlight at various
angles, looking for backscattering, etc. This is very sensitive. I simply could not
get the panel clean enough to remove streaks. Even after wiping with a fresh cotton cloth and
distilled water, I'd have north-south streaks if I cleaned it North-south and I'd have East-West
streaks if I'd cleaned East-West.

- I bought most of the materials from the local Finishmaster store. They have lots and lots
of detailing goodies in stock.

Anyway. Am happy. I hope I'll still be happy after I inspect it in direct sunlight tomorrow ;)
 

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CLASSIC SHINE FINE DETAILER
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good one man... im glad you tried it.... bUT.. if you have not seen it in the sun yet, I would expect to see lots of marring. I mean you just cant get the job done right with a DA!!! Im sorry but its just not gonna give you the bext results.

Also you are using 2500 grit where if you just split the time up and go 2000 then 2500 you'll find you cut more orange peel quicker. There's almost not that much point in doing 2500 alone .. but I respect your choice due to fear of burning.

JUST REMEMBER THAT A ROTARY IS THE ONLY REAL WAY YOU CAN CUT OUT ALL OF THE MARRING LEFT FROM THE SANDING!! ITS THE BUFFING THAT WILL BURN THE PAINT IN MOST CASES NOT THE SANDING!

The thing with overhead lighting in the garage is that it will never show you where you ahve missed with the buffer.... It looks great because you the light isnt intense enough to show the fine lines. I can almost assure you that you will be annoyed and confused when you inspect it in full sun light if you have not already! I might be wrong though... i hope I am. If so then it really will take you ages!

Have you worked with any other lightitng other that ceiling lights in the garage???

As far as checking the areas that you ahve done with the paper. .. you will feel when you have cut out the peel. It will glide easier under the paper. Also,,, what blocks are you using?? I hope Finishmasters gave you their soft blocks. They are all you shoud touch paint with!! If you are the once you get a section done just use a soft block and squegee away the excess water and you will see it all. I cant believe a Micro wont take the streaks off ... thats pilot error!! Anyway .. I look forward to hearing back from ya dn once again I commend you for trying this!
 

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Has stiffer springs
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Discussion Starter #20
good one man... im glad you tried it.... bUT.. if you have not seen it in the sun yet, I would expect to see lots of marring. I mean you just cant get the job done right with a DA!!! Im sorry but its just not gonna give you the bext results.
We'll find out tomorrow ;)

Also you are using 2500 grit where if you just split the time up and go 2000 then 2500 you'll find you cut more orange peel quicker. There's almost not that much point in doing 2500 alone .. but I respect your choice due to fear of burning.
Actually I find the 2500 is quick enough: go at it steadily.

JUST REMEMBER THAT A ROTARY IS THE ONLY REAL WAY YOU CAN CUT OUT ALL OF THE MARRING LEFT FROM THE SANDING!! ITS THE BUFFING THAT WILL BURN THE PAINT IN MOST CASES NOT THE SANDING!
What I'm finding absolutely critical is to be super-careful with the paper. Don't leave any
deep scratches and the buffing is easy. I was really really suprised how
quickly the 3M perfect-it rubbing
compound (06062) takes out the sanding marks. It's specified to remove grade 1500
and finer, so that makes sense. Using it on the orange DA pad.

The thing with overhead lighting in the garage is that it will never show you where you ahve missed with the buffer.... It looks great because you the light isnt intense enough to show the fine lines. I can almost assure you that you will be annoyed and confused when you inspect it in full sun light if you have not already! I might be wrong though... i hope I am. If so then it really will take you ages!
You could be right - but I hope not ;)

Try the flashlight in a dark room trick. It's remarkable.

Have you worked with any other lightitng other that ceiling lights in the garage???
Not on the GTO. But my final test spot on the Pruis door using this technique is perfect. I've
looked at it from every conceivable angle under every conceivable lighting and it's
just a mirror. But it's a light olive color, and the GTO is the dreaded black.

As far as checking the areas that you ahve done with the paper. .. you will feel when you have cut out the peel. It will glide easier under the paper.
Yep, you can feel the roughness go away.

Also,,, what blocks are you using?? I hope Finishmasters gave you their soft blocks.
I bought about eight of them ;) I dropped $300 on them today.

But I prefer to sand a flat or convex panel with an old 3M block which I have which is basically
as hard as a rock: it has practically no give in it. Because I want to sand the
hills, not the valleys. I was not able to use that block on the spoiler at all, however,
because it is concave everywhere.

They are all you shoud touch paint with!! If you are the once you get a section done just use a soft block and squegee away the excess water and you will see it all. I cant believe a Micro wont take the streaks off ... thats pilot error!!
No, my point here is that the flashlight-in-a-dark-room trick is SO sensitive that after
finishing the four-stage polishing, I just was not able to clean the panel enough: whatever I did,
the flashlight trick was still able to show up residue. I don't believe I would have been able
to see that residue if I was doing this outdoors at daytime.

And that residue was the ONLY thing I could detect: no scratches!

In other words, I think that flashlight-in-a-dark-room is even more sensitive than direct sunlight.

I'll know tomorrow!

Anyway .. I look forward to hearing back from ya dn once again I commend you for trying this!
That spoiler took me about three hours. It was hard, and I'll get faster, but I'm in
no hurry.
 
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