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speed_demon_freak said:
Everyone talks about it and how bad it is for the car. What is it and why dont you want it?


Thanks

From what I understand is that in an A4 car TM will pull timing when you punch it off the line or when it shifts, to help keep stress off the drivetrain. It might do other things too but Im not %100 sure.
 

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Member #804
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I used to be in the modifying 99-03 trucks big time before I moved onto GTOs and the truck guys have a huge problem with TM. TM removes timing during a WOT upshift, to create a smoother shift and less stress to the driveline, customers may otherwise complain of hard shifts. With TM removed it is very noticable, predator tuners will serverly modify TM to the point you not notice it. Hypertech I don't think does much with TM. LS1edit will let you do what you like with TM.
 

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Yellow Goat
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No affect on M6 LS1 cars then?
 

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Snagging your fish!!!
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1COOLPC said:
No affect on M6 LS1 cars then?
no, just on the A4s. GM doesn't want to pay for blown trans. although the research that I've done, the A4 is a pretty stout piece, with Vette inernals.
 

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So with all you guys are describing with TM on A4s, should the A4 cars be faster than they are off the floor if it is edited correctly? Will an edit change the way an A4 GTO runs that much, like dramatically different ? I never thought those transmissions were weak or am I wrong in this assumption?
 

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I'm wondering if this was more for liability than longevity. A person that I have talked to removed the TM from his wifes '02 Firehawk with the Predator software. Her first run at the track with the TM removed she almost ran the car into the wall because of the wheel spin on the 1-2 shift. She wouldn't even drive the car again after that. I've also heard that the trannys are much tougher than they're given credit for. This is when I started to wonder if they protecting the trannys or actually covering themselves from lawsuits?
 

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Gone but not forgotten
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T.Vick said:
I'm wondering if this was more for liability than longevity. A person that I have talked to removed the TM from his wifes '02 Firehawk with the Predator software. Her first run at the track with the TM removed she almost ran the car into the wall because of the wheel spin on the 1-2 shift. She wouldn't even drive the car again after that. I've also heard that the trannys are much tougher than they're given credit for. This is when I started to wonder if they protecting the trannys or actually covering themselves from lawsuits?

that makes sense, imagine tryin to power shift an M6 with the gas to floor. when you let out the clutch the wheels are gonna spin like crazy.
 

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Old Goat and someone else here were "fooling around" with their cars, and found out that the TM is basically when the trans is in "D". Old Goat talked to a corvette guru, and the "guru" told him that the A4 vette guys get around the TM by putting the trans in "3". You can break the tires loose, and melt a perfectly good set of tires into molten goo.
Other than editting out the TM with a programer, that is the only way to get around the TM. From what I have read and asked, the TM is there to "more" protect the trans from "driveline shock", and to keep the trans life longer. There is a post in drivelines, and Old Goat breaks down what the GTO trans is built from, mainly it is the 4L60 or 65E,(can't re-call off hand) and it has the Vette internals. This is for the more powerful engine, and HD applications.
 

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craigD said:
So with all you guys are describing with TM on A4s, should the A4 cars be faster than they are off the floor if it is edited correctly? Will an edit change the way an A4 GTO runs that much, like dramatically different ? I never thought those transmissions were weak or am I wrong in this assumption?
Yes an edit will make a massive difference, especially if the car is an auto. You will notice off line throttle respone and from a roll plus added bonus of fuel economy.

After edit, car always chirps gears going into 2nd and slides at WOT, and line pressure can be adjusted for really crisp shifts in Power mode, I left normal mode stock.

Theres only so much power you can put through a trans before things start letting go, Im pretty sure Im over the power rating for a 4L60E.
 

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But if you have torque management edited out, will that not void the drivetrain warranty?
 

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Knight Errant
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Faster?

craigD said:
So with all you guys are describing with TM on A4s, should the A4 cars be faster than they are off the floor if it is edited correctly? Will an edit change the way an A4 GTO runs that much, like dramatically different ? I never thought those transmissions were weak or am I wrong in this assumption?
In a word, Yes!

The transmissions are good for about 380 lbft as they were tweaked for the GTO. They're not a normal 4L60-E, nor a full fledged 4L65-E, but are between the two, termed a 4L60-E HD and incorporate a lot of 4L65-E parts. I can see how torque management could alleviate both issues, driveline shock, and liability for 'runaway'. I'm still not interested in having it. I already have a guardian angel, and I can control my gas foot. If the transmission can't live without TM softening the shifts and interfering with torque at launch, it should have gotten the full fledged 4L65-E, or the 4L80-E if necessary,and the added cost passed on, or perhaps the car should have been all M6's rather than hobbling the auto version. I want all the car I bought, and believe it or not, the car might have actually met CAFE standards without TM and a proper solid shifting transmission, or at least the mode button they deleted, and the gas guzzler tax might not have applied, plenty enough money freed up from the tax to pay for a heavier transmission at the same price.

I don't know, maybe it's just that doing that without notifying potential owners before purchase smacks of dishonesty, sort of like a sleezy used car salesman asserting, "No Maam, that not yellow paint on the doojamb, this used car was never a repainted taxi, that's yellow primer!" :sneaky:
 

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Old Goat said:
In a word, Yes!

The transmissions are good for about 380 lbft as they were tweaked for the GTO. They're not a normal 4L60-E, nor a full fledged 4L65-E, but are between the two, termed a 4L60-E HD and incorporate a lot of 4L65-E parts. I can see how torque management could alleviate both issues, driveline shock, and liability for 'runaway'. I'm still not interested in having it. I already have a guardian angel, and I can control my gas foot. If the transmission can't live without TM softening the shifts and interfering with torque at launch, it should have gotten the full fledged 4L65-E, or the 4L80-E if necessary,and the added cost passed on, or perhaps the car should have been all M6's rather than hobbling the auto version. I want all the car I bought, and believe it or not, the car might have actually met CAFE standards without TM and a proper solid shifting transmission, or at least the mode button they deleted, and the gas guzzler tax might not have applied, plenty enough money freed up from the tax to pay for a heavier transmission at the same price.

I don't know, maybe it's just that doing that without notifying potential owners before purchase smacks of dishonesty, sort of like a sleezy used car salesman asserting, "No Maam, that not yellow paint on the doojamb, this used car was never a repainted taxi, that's yellow primer!" :sneaky:
Old Goat,
Are you satisfied with your auto trans car after the mods to the TM ?Is it worth dealing with to reprogam or just go with the M6. I could accept either unless the auto cars seem like a dead end then I would just focus on the stick car. Craig
 

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Knight Errant
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craigD said:
Old Goat,
Are you satisfied with your auto trans car after the mods to the TM ?Is it worth dealing with to reprogam or just go with the M6. I could accept either unless the auto cars seem like a dead end then I would just focus on the stick car. Craig
In a word car, Yes. Drivetrain effects of TM and Abuse control, not just no, but H*ll NO! I am working around it, probably 70%, until I understand it better and can make an intelligent decision about what goes, and what if anything, stays.

One thing is certain. I paid $305 more for less car. I didn't know that when I bought it. I bought a tenth second slower automatic. That is not what I got. I got a 'Minder' thrown in that interferes with the car performing properly to the limits of it's capabilities under power, wherever it is applied. I did not choose or want this 'added feature' and would have refused it if offered for free. In fact I didn't even know I would be subject to it's tender ministrations. I honestly think that if I had been told before I bought it, I would have gone looking for a Barbados M6 and taken my chances on arthritis issues.

TM and Abuse control was backdoored with the auto and certainly not to benefit me. It is purely there to provide a safety margin for the drivetrain, regardless of how badly it hurts the car's performance. The funny thing is, if you beat the car it seems to learn to allow most of that, if you treat it kindly, it becomes more intrusive. The answer? According to one of the reviewers, to unplug the fuses and reset the controllers. If, after reading the manuals, I understand it correctly, it is resident in both the PTM and BCM, and may even pervade the Transmission Controller.

One thing is certain, It wiill cost another $500 for the software for my laptop to either kill or neuter it, and this is just to get the car back to a fair footing with it's M6 brethren. So get a stick, or pony up $805 more to have an unimpeded automatic. :mad:
 

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Thanks for the review OLD GOAT. that was very well written, I'm still undecided as to get a 6spd. or A4, the GTO will not be my daily driver, so now I'm leaning to the 6spd.
 

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Knight Errant
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Which

UBDSLO1 said:
Thanks for the review OLD GOAT. that was very well written, I'm still undecided as to get a 6spd. or A4, the GTO will not be my daily driver, so now I'm leaning to the 6spd.
If it's to be a daily driver and you don't have a 30 mile commute that takes an hour or less if you hit the road at 3:00 PM and 2 1/2 hours if you hit the road at 3:30 or later and is all stop and go averaging 10 MPH, or a health issue (I am on Coumadin making any arthritis treatment impossible...some days are a screaming....well, you get the idea) by all means, go stick.

If you have a hard commute where the roads turns from a highway to an absolute stationary horror show, or just don't want to stir your own all the time, still think auto and learn it's limits.

I have no gripe with the convenience of the auto at all. My gripe is with all the unannounced baggage that comes with the auto that actually makes it a better daily driver, but s*ck as an occasional weekend warrior.

I am by no means hard on the car, I baby it, but even I have bumped heads with TM and Abuse prevention several times when power was needed right now. I wanted and bought a performance car. I didn't blink at the gas guzzler tax. I don't care if Sunoco Ultra is over $2.00 a gallon. I bought a car touted as only a tenth slower than the 6 speed.

I got a car that thinks it knows better than me when to accelerate and how hard, whether or not we're in a situation where it's selected option may not be advisable. What good is an unoffended U-joint when you have a dump truck in the trunk?

I can see what's going on and make the appropriate decision and it will stick in any other car made...just not this one. My decisions have been accident and breakage free, unless you count being last in a line of stopped cars and getting tailended. The poor lady ate a Heavy Duty Step and Tow mounted directly to the frame. I saw it coming, and had no place to go. I stood on the brakes to avoid a Daisy Chain. The truck didn't budge on the KD's I got a dimple in the step, no more. She got a ramp truck.

I took defensive driving, evasive actions, and pursuit driving. I know how to drive around an accident. I have had to avoid a handful over the years sometimes with the brakes and manuvers, sometimes with the loud pedal. I see them coming. The digital idiot didn't, doesn't, and never will. That irks me because it forces me to overcompensate for it by halving what I expect of the car to be safe.

Really, who owns your car? You, or the warranty desk at GM? If they couldn't produce the car for us without limiting it, more or less secretly, to avoid it spitting out parts, why did they bother? That is the only thing I have found NOT to like about my car. At first it was interesting, then I began to wonder how invasive it was, then it almost got us creamed, I learned a way to get around most of it, but it takes an extra motion that costs time and I don't want to drive around in 3rd all day, although the pipes speak so sweetly at 3,000 RPM... :D Now I want to strangle it, and I will so I can have my car back. I am constantly reminded of Nelson on the Simpsons....Ha! ha! goes the digital idiot... :mad:
 

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Old Goat said:
If it's to be a daily driver and you don't have a 30 mile commute that takes an hour or less if you hit the road at 3:00 PM and 2 1/2 hours if you hit the road at 3:30 or later and is all stop and go averaging 10 MPH, or a health issue (I am on Coumadin making any arthritis treatment impossible...some days are a screaming....well, you get the idea) by all means, go stick.

If you have a hard commute where the roads turns from a highway to an absolute stationary horror show, or just don't want to stir your own all the time, still think auto and learn it's limits.

I have no gripe with the convenience of the auto at all. My gripe is with all the unannounced baggage that comes with the auto that actually makes it a better daily driver, but s*ck as an occasional weekend warrior.

I am by no means hard on the car, I baby it, but even I have bumped heads with TM and Abuse prevention several times when power was needed right now. I wanted and bought a performance car. I didn't blink at the gas guzzler tax. I don't care if Sunoco Ultra is over $2.00 a gallon. I bought a car touted as only a tenth slower than the 6 speed.

I got a car that thinks it knows better than me when to accelerate and how hard, whether or not we're in a situation where it's selected option may not be advisable. What good is an unoffended U-joint when you have a dump truck in the trunk?

I can see what's going on and make the appropriate decision and it will stick in any other car made...just not this one. My decisions have been accident and breakage free, unless you count being last in a line of stopped cars and getting tailended. The poor lady ate a Heavy Duty Step and Tow mounted directly to the frame. I saw it coming, and had no place to go. I stood on the brakes to avoid a Daisy Chain. The truck didn't budge on the KD's I got a dimple in the step, no more. She got a ramp truck.

I took defensive driving, evasive actions, and pursuit driving. I know how to drive around an accident. I have had to avoid a handful over the years sometimes with the brakes and manuvers, sometimes with the loud pedal. I see them coming. The digital idiot didn't, doesn't, and never will. That irks me because it forces me to overcompensate for it by halving what I expect of the car to be safe.

Really, who owns your car? You, or the warranty desk at GM? If they couldn't produce the car for us without limiting it, more or less secretly, to avoid it spitting out parts, why did they bother? That is the only thing I have found NOT to like about my car. At first it was interesting, then I began to wonder how invasive it was, then it almost got us creamed, I learned a way to get around most of it, but it takes an extra motion that costs time and I don't want to drive around in 3rd all day, although the pipes speak so sweetly at 3,000 RPM... :D Now I want to strangle it, and I will so I can have my car back. I am constantly reminded of Nelson on the Simpsons....Ha! ha! goes the digital idiot... :mad:
Thanks Old Goat, with all that research you have done I will go with a stick car. Thanks again, Craig
 

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Bonzai Baby
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Don't know if my car is like ever other A4?? But, I read this thread, and on my way to work this morning, I tried the following. I turned trac off and put the car in "1". I was at a stop sign and was turning right onto a road that was gradually curving to the right. I accelerated without spinning the tires and manually shifted to "2" at 5500. The tires spun and the car swung to the left. I let off the gas and straightened it. How much more power does the car need??
 

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Knight Errant
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My beef

johmol said:
Don't know if my car is like ever other A4?? But, I read this thread, and on my way to work this morning, I tried the following. I turned trac off and put the car in "1". I was at a stop sign and was turning right onto a road that was gradually curving to the right. I accelerated without spinning the tires and manually shifted to "2" at 5500. The tires spun and the car swung to the left. I let off the gas and straightened it. How much more power does the car need??
Johmol, my beef isn't with how much power the car has, or how much it needs, but that some onboard digital know it all occasionally makes an overriding decision on whether or not that power will be applied on demand and as demanded, regardless of the actual situation that might make the release of that power the right choice. T/C has an override button. This does not.
In one case already this almost got me nailed in the rear quarter panel by a dump truck which came out of nowhere and didn't stop at the sign. Like T/C, there should be an on/off switch.
If an on demand override isn't retrofittable, I'll kill it completely and make the decision with my right foot as I always have. If an idiot is going to get me killed or injured. it d*mn well better be me.
 

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Old Goat said:
If an idiot is going to get me killed or injured. it d*mn well better be me.
:p :p :p Well stated, and good for a Laugh!!! :bubbrub
 
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