LS1GTO Forums banner

1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
GTO = Pontiac shenanigans
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Okay guys what can you tell me about these springs. Are they good? Will they accommodate drag bags? any input/experience would be great. I'm looking to do my springs but I have been hard pressed as to what to get. :confused:
 

·
Single Digit Stick Shift
Joined
·
4,088 Posts
Great springs, work well with Koni shocks/sturts, but will not work with drag bags. How's that?
 

·
GTO = Pontiac shenanigans
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
BillyGoatGruff said:
Great springs, work well with Koni shocks/sturts, but will not work with drag bags. How's that?

Thank you. That about answers it. I guess I am going to have to go with Kings.:ftw:
 

·
Because race car
Joined
·
2,835 Posts
Anyone know spring rates and how they compare to stock/Pedders/King?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
I will have to dig up the spring rates, but all the Whiteline springs are lowered. They do not offer any in a stock height option. I have ridden in cars with all three options ST.Mary has asked about, and I prefer these. Granted we have the entire whiteline group 4 coilover kit, so I better like it compared to just springs. Once I find the springs rates I will post them.
 

·
Single Digit Stick Shift
Joined
·
4,088 Posts
St.Mary said:
Anyone know spring rates and how they compare to stock/Pedders/King?

None of them release this super secret information. :fawkdance
The only spring rates you will find are from Tein springs.
 

·
GTO no more baaah!
Joined
·
1,150 Posts
"[email protected]
Senior Member
LS1GTO.com Sponsor



Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 180


Offline whiteline spring rates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had the numbers emailed to me today, and here they are. The rear springs are rated at 437 lbs/in. I hope this is the data you are looking for.
__________________
This is for the flatout springs with the coilover kit Tony sent me when I asked this a while back.
 

·
Because race car
Joined
·
2,835 Posts
This is rediculous....
Looking at the Pedders site and the spring rates are "proprietary". What the hell is this. How am I supposed to make a decision without knowing this type of info?

Looks like I'm just going to have to pull them off my car and test them myself :drink:

Now to find a couple hundred pounds of weight and a ruler......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Here is the data from whiteline;
Both rear springs for the Flatout Superlow and Control Low are 437lbs/in
However the fronts are different for each. The front flatouts are progressive at 128>257lbs/in. The control front springs are rated at 168>274lbs/in. I hope this helps some people. IF anyone has anymore questions, please let me know.
 

·
Mid-Atlantic Moderator
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
lol, St. Mary you kill me, its all their "red" magic
 

·
GTO no more baaah!
Joined
·
1,150 Posts
LS1Speed said:
Ls1 Speed
LS1 Speed
LS1GTO.com Sponsor





Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 450


Offline For those that are wondering the spring rates:

King Front - 200-250lb/" single end tapper/progressive rate
King Rear - 440-520lb/' single end tapper/progressive rate

OE front spring rate 175lb/'
OE rear spring rate 305lb/"
search king+spring+rates found the old thread
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,685 Posts
St.Mary said:
This is rediculous....
Looking at the Pedders site and the spring rates are "proprietary". What the hell is this. How am I supposed to make a decision without knowing this type of info?
I am sorry you found the data on our website to be wanting. Pedders Dealers are a great resource for suspension information on our products and real world applications. If the information you want isn't on the website call your local Pedders Dealer.

Spring Rate Values are not fixed data points. There is no guarantee that published rates for springs are verified accurate by a mythical Automotive Weights and Measures Worldwide Agency. The equipment, methodology and range at which the spring is measured will vary by company. Progressive rate spring data is even more elusive. You are measuring a moving target. We do provide a 'value' for comparison on the website. Pedders Dealers are a great resource for suspension information on our products and real world application. If the information you want isn't on the website call your local Pedders Dealer.

The rear coils on your GTO are Mini Bloc style. They are used to save space and not because they are a great performance design. The motion ratio for the GTO rear coil is about 5 to 1 -- the wheel moves 1" inch and the spring move 1/5". The taper on the wire is dramatic. It has to be or the car would be grossly over sprung. The first coil and a half top on bottom are low to moderate in rate with the center coil being the strongest. The spring rate of an aftermarket spring in relation to an OE spring will be different at almost every point of compression. The highest coil rate will be found at full scrag / full compression of the coil. The bump stops in your car are designed to prevent that from happening. The point is that spring rate is an elusive measure of performance for a coil.

If Eibach states their spring rate is a 5, Whiteline states theirs is a 6 and Pedders claims theirs is a 4.5 what does that really mean? Not much because the methodology used to determine the spring rates for publication may or may not be the same. The rate may be measured at full scrag or 90% compression. Then there is consistency in manufacturing process and so on.

My GTO has had springs on it form several respected manufacturers before I became a partner with Ron Pedder. I have used Monroe AU, OE, KONI and Pedders Dampers in combinations on my GTO. I have test driven dozens of combinations in other GTOs. The results have been mixed but the quality of parts has been good through all. Obviously I determined Pedders was the best, but that is my business and opinion at this time. The bottom line is the best way to select suspension modifications for your car is to drive a vehicle with the parts you want to buy installed. Any other methodology is an educated guess at best. I am sorry you found the data on our website to be wanting. Let us know how your GTO turns out.
 

·
Single Digit Stick Shift
Joined
·
4,088 Posts
JusticePete said:
Spring Rate Values are not fixed data points. There is no guarantee that published rates for springs are verified accurate by a mythical Automotive Weights and Measures Worldwide Agency. The equipment, methodology and range at which the spring is measured will vary by company. Progressive rate spring data is even more elusive. You are measuring a moving target. We do provide a 'value' for comparison on the website. Pedders Dealers are a great resource for suspension information on our products and real world application. If the information you want isn't on the website call your local Pedders Dealer.

If Eibach states their spring rate is a 5, Whiteline states theirs is a 6 and Pedders claims theirs is a 4.5 what does that really mean? Not much because the methodology used to determine the spring rates for publication may or may not be the same. The rate may be measured at full scrag or 90% compression. Then there is consistency in manufacturing process and so on.
So let me get this right and correct me if I'm wrong, but since the published spring rates are said to be moving, then all the manufactures that have published these spring rates are advertising incorrectly? How can other manufacturers come up with spring rates and Pedders not come up with any? Are they purposely with holding information?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,685 Posts
BillyGoatGruff said:
So let me get this right and correct me if I'm wrong, but since the published spring rates are said to be moving, then all the manufactures that have published these spring rates are advertising incorrectly? How can other manufacturers come up with spring rates and Pedders not come up with any? Are they purposely with holding information?
They are publishing a data point. It is their data point measured on their equipment. We publish a data point. Can they be compared as the exact same measurement, as the exact same data point -- no they cannot. Send the springs to a independent lab from all the manufacturers and have the lab measure the coils under the exact same conditions on the same equipment, zeroed out and re-calibrated before each test, run the tests multiple times on multiple sets of coils and you would have an accurate data base to work with. Have each manufacturer measure their own springs on their own equipment with their own methodology and you get what we have -- data that is not directly comparable due to a variety of variables. Why does this surprise anyone?

Compare two tires of the exact same published size. The sizes (275/35 18)are the same and approved to be sold as the same by D.O.T. The tires will be measure up and be different.

You go to the shoe store and normally wear size 11 shoes. You may need an 11.5 in Nike and a 10.5 in Adidas and an 11 with K Swiss. The last they use to measure and manufacture the shoe is different. Now ask each manufacturer who makes the shoe the right size.

Now, which shoes would you buy? Probably the ones that fit and feel the best. Which suspension parts should you buy? The one that you feel fits your driving style and feel the best by your seat of the pants evaluation.
 

·
Single Digit Stick Shift
Joined
·
4,088 Posts
JusticePete said:
They are publishing a data point. It is their data point measured on their equipment. We publish a data point. Can they be compared as the exact same measurement, as the exact same data point -- no they cannot. Send the springs to a independent lab from all the manufacturers and have the lab measure the coils under the exact same conditions on the same equipment, zeroed out and re-calibrated before each test, run the tests multiple times on multiple sets of coils and you would have an accurate data base to work with. Have each manufacturer measure their own springs on their own equipment with their own methodology and you get what we have -- data that is not directly comparable due to a variety of variables. Why does this surprise anyone?

Compare two tires of the exact same published size. The sizes (275/35 18)are the same and approved to be sold as the same by D.O.T. The tires will be measure up and be different.

You go to the shoe store and normally wear size 11 shoes. You may need an 11.5 in Nike and a 10.5 in Adidas and an 11 with K Swiss. The last they use to measure and manufacture the shoe is different. Now ask each manufacturer who makes the shoe the right size.

Now, which shoes would you buy? Probably the ones that fit and feel the best. Which suspension parts should you buy? The one that you feel fits your driving style and feel the best by your seat of the pants evaluation.


Now I agree with what you have stated above about each doing there own R&D and publishing their own numbers. It would be nice to see a test lab do an eval of all the springs.
Unlike shoes, I don't get to try on each set of springs before I buy them, therefore, a rough estimate of spring rates are all 'I' have to go on. How do I know that one spring is better suited for me than any other, Pedders, Whiteline, Eibach, etc? Numbers is all we can go off regardless of who is doing the study. It will at least give us a rough approximation on where we want to be.

Then again, even if Pedders does their own evaluation of their springs, where are the numbers?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,113 Posts
:quoties: LOL :quoties:

I agree a range should still be given otherwise you can't even begin to compare how rough the ride might get compared to stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,685 Posts
ddawson said:
:quoties: LOL :quoties:

I agree a range should still be given otherwise you can't even begin to compare how rough the ride might get compared to stock.

We provide a ratio to the stock spring which we feel is the most relevant number to the end user. The table is the very first data box on the right of our GTO Packages Page.
 

·
Captain Thread Killer returns
Joined
·
21,898 Posts
King springs and drag bags FTW!

Its what I use and you've seen my 60's Rock
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,685 Posts
BillyGoatGruff said:
Now I agree with what you have stated above about each doing there own R&D and publishing their own numbers. It would be nice to see a test lab do an eval of all the springs.
Unlike shoes, I don't get to try on each set of springs before I buy them, therefore, a rough estimate of spring rates are all 'I' have to go on. How do I know that one spring is better suited for me than any other, Pedders, Whiteline, Eibach, etc? Numbers is all we can go off regardless of who is doing the study. It will at least give us a rough approximation on where we want to be.

Then again, even if Pedders does their own evaluation of their springs, where are the numbers?
We do evaluate OE and brand x products all the time. We would NEVER publish those results. To do so would be subjective, argumentative and counter productive in the market place. No one wins when you get into a he said she said discussion.

Next on the list would be application of the data. Unsprung weight will reduce the effective spring rate. What is the weight of the tire and wheel combination you plan to use. Urethane as opposed to OE rubber bushes alters effective spring rate. Matching coils to dampers is a third factor. There are many more. The function of a suspension is to keep the rubber on the road under all conditions. Setting a up a GTO is almost a trick question. It is a two ton performance car with small wheel wells. If your suspension gets too tight you will have a suspension with far more capability than the tires can handle and lose traction on anything less than a vacuumed NASCAR smooth track while your car eats tires.

I got into this because my first aftermarket suspension on my car that was shown at SEMA wasn't as good as I thought it should be. My car probably has the record for being taken apart and put back together. I gave up on TTY bolts a long time ago as they never stay on my car long enough to come loose :banghead: There is always another bit to bolt on and evaluate. I bought my first Pedders suspension and paid to have it installed. My partnership with Ron evolved from my personal satisfaction with the parts I bought. The brand x parts that came off my car were sold here on the forum and on eBay. The people that bought them enjoy them. Some were not fit to resell and went straight to the dumpster.

Long story short, drive before you buy when ever possible. Talk to people who have done mods on the forum and in person. Talk to the vendors. Read the stats. Come to a Pedders Tech Session. If there isn't a dealer near you setup a gathering and one of our Dealers or I will attend and make a presentation on GTO suspension. All we need is an invitation. Then make your best guess. It ain't life and death -- they are just car parts and enjoy your GTO!
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Top