Um, can't answer your question really good. But I have driven both an 05 STI and I own an 04 GTO. Yes the torque is awesome. The owner of the STI couldn't stop droolin over the torque thats available all the time. Yes, the sound of the motor can't be beat.

When I go back to the GTO from the STI it feels like it has really really sloppy suspension. Also the sligh slop in our shifters become even more apparent. First time I sat in the STI, I just sat there shifting through all the gears over and over cuz it was so precise. STI has a big funny wing and less color choices.

As for running 275s in the rear. You may have rubbing issues. I have 275s on mine and it rubs on one of the rear fenders.

Also check this page out and look at the first product. It boasts some nice improvment in handling numbers. Also check out gravanatuning.com for some other suspension stuff for our cars like coilovers.

Hope I helped a bit.

 

You have a lot of good questions, many of which I have as well. If I keep this car, my goal will be to compete in FS in the near term while preparing to compete in T2. I can't answer your questions on suspension mods because I haven't researched those mods with the exception of shocks.

I don't expect to be competitive in FS with the GTO mainly due to it's weight and wheelbase. My goal in competing in FS is to get a feel for the car while preparing for T2 competition. The goal to being competitive in ESP is getting the weight down to a reasonable level. As you've noted, the GTO is lighter than your CTS-V, but the suspension, brakes, and tire aren't what the CTS-V's were. You can fix some of that with the mods allowed in ESP, but I still think weight will be a factor. T2 regs allow the GTO to compete at 3680lbs and there is one driver I know of that has gotten his car to that weight. If you could get your car to that weight, with the suspension mods allowed in ESP, I think you'd be competitive. You'd be close to the f-body's weight and have the advantage of better brakes and IMHO a better suspension. Your disadvantage would be with tire. However, you were mentioning competing with 245's on the front with I'm assuming an 8" rim. There are many wheels out there that would fit the front of a GTO in an 8.5" width. Most of them come with about a 40mm offset which should work nicely. Right now I have 8" wide rims on the front of mine with 40mm offset and have plenty of clearance on the inside and outside to add another 1/4" of rim/tire. Going to an 8.5" rim, you could bump your front tire to a 255. If you really wanted to push it and have custom rims made, I honestly think you could fit a 9" rim up front but you'd be right at the limit and I don't think you'd be able to rotate them to the rear. To get a 9" rim on the front from my calculations (and playing with some 9" wide rims I have in the garage), you'd need a 35mm offset or slightly less to clear the stock strut. Unfortunately on the rear you're needing somewhere around a 50mm offset to keep the wheel/tire under the rear fender on the outside. Even with 50mm, you'll need to most likely do some trimming on the rear fender lip to make it happen.

Now if I remember right, you can replace the stock strut/spring combo in ESP with a coilover setup. If you did that and got a smaller diameter spring, you might get be able to get a 9" rim up front with an offset closer to the desired 50mm. That'd be ideal because then you could run a 275 front and rear, and be able to rotate wheels/tires front to rear. I think this would also lend to a more balanced setup.

In regards to your front camber question, that really depends on your wheel/tire combo. Front neg camber I believe is mostly limited by clearance of your tire and the strut. If you get a wheel with minimal offset, you should be able to dial in plenty of neg camber in the front. The rears are not adjustable and already have about -1 deg of camber built in.
Hope I didn't cause more confusion than help.

 

Good responses fellas, thank you. I appreciate the advice. So it seems as if there's really no lack of aftermarket support, a few companies have the bases covered...but tire-size seems to be the limiting factor.

Is there really no way to add negative camber for the rear? There must be a way. I think about -2 to -3 camber up front with -1.5 to -2 degs in the rear would be a good starting point with a fat set of bars helping keep the camber through the turns. I need to find a little more data, but at least the subject is on the table.

Keep it coming...thanks,
ace

 

Good responses fellas, thank you. I appreciate the advice. So it seems as if there's really no lack of aftermarket support, a few companies have the bases covered...but tire-size seems to be the limiting factor.

Is there really no way to add negative camber for the rear? There must be a way. I think about -2 to -3 camber up front with -1.5 to -2 degs in the rear would be a good starting point with a fat set of bars helping keep the camber through the turns. I need to find a little more data, but at least the subject is on the table.

Keep it coming...thanks,
ace

there are ways. i have coilovers in the front w/ aftermarket wheels studs/spacers and can get -3. as for the rear, i am thinking in can get -2 if i push it w/ 245's and maybe (maybe) -1.5 with 275 (bridgestones). I am setting my up for SoloII in the prepared cat (damned 2 piece brake rotors, i almost wish i didn't have them now). I can report how I do but this is my first year doing autox competitively sooo don't expect much at first.

what region are you in?

 

Yes there is a way to adjust the rear camber, all you need is this http://midwestpd.com/catalog/produc...p/cPath/190_192_198_209/products_id/315?osCsid=49dbf73737ab8bc2619a4cce75c8300b

 

it can hang....here is proof!

media.putfile.com/gtowatkins2

 

The superpro setup from Autoform will let you adjust both the camber and toe for the IRS. I don't know of any other kit that will give you that much control, the others only allow you to control the camber and not the toe.

 

it can hang....here is proof!

media.putfile.com/gtowatkins2

Nice video. However looks to me like this is just a track day with instruction going on inside the car. Big difference between going out and having fun for a day and being competitive like ace996 was asking.

I think the car has possibilities and can do well if rule changes are made to help it overcome its shortcomings.

If you look at the '05 SCCA T2 results, there was only one GTO in the competition and it placed 20th. There is some work to be done to make it a podium finisher.

 

Heres another one
Noltec's camber adj. bushings N61309 & N62927 deliver 4mm & 8mm more range in adjustment. These Australian made products provide desired rear camber & toe settings at a cost efficient price.

 

I dont want to give my opinon on what the GTO can do on a road course versus an STI because I will just get jumped by a bunch of STI-lovers who says its simply not possible for the GTO to compare to the STI

 

I dont want to give my opinon on what the GTO can do on a road course versus an STI because I will just get jumped by a bunch of STI-lovers who says its simply not possible for the GTO to compare to the STI

I would definately side with you and I own both cars.

 

I am in NYRegion, Long Island.

PhilII, I saw that video before...I see you visit IWSTI, too...nice job on Watkins.

The debate continues....

 

Road course performance and Auto-x capability are two TOTALLY different things. To be very blunt about it, the GTO is a terrible Auto-x car.

It all depends on your priorities. If you put it Racing > Daily driving, you would be better off in an Evo. The only down side is the ride quality for daily driving. However, by the time you got a GTO's suspension to where it could handle Auto-x relatively well, it would ride just as bad, not to mention the huge costs involved. And for less money the Evo could eat the GTO in a straight line also.

If you're looking for Daily driving > racing, the GTO is far better. The build quality blows the Evo away. The GTO is more comfortable, more reliable, and a much more pleasant car to use for long trips or just ride around in. It's very fast right out of the box and is a blast to race on any kind of track.

If you want a race car that doubles as a daily driver: Evo.

If you want a daily driver that doubles as a race car: GTO.


I said Evo and not STi because while compared endlessly and considered the same car by the ignorant, Evo > STi.

 

there are people here with more experence than me but i'm real happy with the auto-x performance i'm getting. I haven't done much to the car yet either. But I haven't driven an EVO so maybe I'm wrong.
One thing I do know is that I must have rwd. What I liked was the ability to steer the car around a corner by letting up on the gas when you go in too hot.

 

Hey guys. I am the T2 driver that John had mentioned. It has been an uphill battle getting the 6.0 GTO to be a competitive road racing car with the factory suspension. I am currently working on getting springs and sway bars approved by the SCCA competition board, which is exactly what the car needs. I have the hp dialed in and the brakes are incredible with the Carbotech pads. Handling is a problem. As most of you know there is a huge difference between track days, driving on your local roads and racing with 50 other cars on the ragged edge all the time. I was in 14th position, at the 2005 Run Offs, when I was hit by a STi and knocked back to 19th, where I finished. I hope to get the car dialed in this year. Take a look at a web-site: www.peddersusa.com There are a ton of great products on there for the street, auto x, or road racing. There is also specifically a rear camber kit on there that is quite reasonable. I am one of 5 or 6 Pedders dealers in the US. I am testing the new big bore shocks and struts on the race track this weekend. Let me know if I can help.

Thanks,
Chris Brannon
www.trmclassics.com
email: trmclassics@yahoo.com

 

I think the GTO is a very good autoX car; I won the 2005 FS class in the Texas Region SCCA Solo II series here in D/FW. My main competition was a Z-28 driven by the champ for the last two years and a late-model TransAm entered by a veteran driver and his son; a Mustang showed-up occasionally along with another GTO, but I'll admit up-front that competition in FS for 2005 was fairly light. I'll be glad to talk to you at length about what I think the GTO needs to be a better autoX car; let's just say that traction is in short supply!

 

i;ve done some auto-x on stock rubber, bad idea. and you don't want more than -1 up front, trust me

 

If you look at the '05 SCCA T2 results, there was only one GTO in the competition and it placed 20th. There is some work to be done to make it a podium finisher.

Hey guys. I am the T2 driver that John had mentioned. It has been an uphill battle getting the 6.0 GTO to be a competitive road racing car with the factory suspension. I am currently working on getting springs and sway bars approved by the SCCA competition board, which is exactly what the car needs. I have the hp dialed in and the brakes are incredible with the Carbotech pads. Handling is a problem. As most of you know there is a huge difference between track days, driving on your local roads and racing with 50 other cars on the ragged edge all the time. I was in 14th position, at the 2005 Run Offs, when I was hit by a STi and knocked back to 19th, where I finished. I hope to get the car dialed in this year. Take a look at a web-site: www.peddersusa.com There are a ton of great products on there for the street, auto x, or road racing. There is also specifically a rear camber kit on there that is quite reasonable. I am one of 5 or 6 Pedders dealers in the US. I am testing the new big bore shocks and struts on the race track this weekend. Let me know if I can help.

Hey Chris, sorry for the incorrect information I posted about your stat at the Runoffs. I guess I read the results incorrectly and posted your final position 1 spot lower than you actually finished. I also made that post before I talked to you on the phone and you told me about the STi incident. I certainly wasn't trying to discount your finishing position, but more trying to make the point (like I think you were as well) that the car is a great starting platform for road course competition but still needs work to run at the front of the pack.

Hope to see you stick around and post more. Good luck with the tests this weekend!

 

So there it is. Can the GTO be a competitive autoxer? Any comparisons vs other cars?

I'm really looking to get back on the podium and if I could have a platform that would allow my skills to shine, especially an American(ok...Australian) vehicle, and show those M3s of the BMW club a thing or two about LSxpower...I'd be a happy guy. I love the looks of the GTO, and the motor has me all about sold...
Thanks for your help,
ace

IMHO…

For the SOLO-II Auto-X course, the advantage goes to the M3s, STIs & EVOs.

On an open road track, the advantage goes to the GTO.


I run in SOLO-II Auto-X Class ‘STU’ on tires with a 280 treadware rating while the M3s, STIs and EVOs are running a 200+/- treadware rating. I am normally 5-7 seconds behind the first place runner (National Champ) – and end up in 5-6 place out of the 6 or so cars that normally run (all M3s, STIs and EVOs), on a 60 – 80 second course.

I don’t really think our cars can be made to handle as good as would be required to be competitive on an Auto-X course. Just not enough tire width for the weight of our cars on such a small course.

When I am running in an Auto-X, I am just out there to have fun and to see what my car can do when pushed at 100%.

When out on the road course (SCR), on a open track day, I am holding my own - pushing at about 95%. When there are M3s, STIs and EVOs out there, we are pretty much even - even though they are running on race tires. If I had the race tires...


Some SOLO-II Auto-X results...

Street Touring U
Hometown (Index) Best Pts
Vehicle Sponsor

T 1. 26/STU Russ Johnson (N) Denver, CO - - - 72.012 914
03 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution
1) 75.139 2) 75.920 3) 73.503 4) 72.012 5) --


T 2. 111/STU Ryan Clark Thornton, CO - - - 72.022 914
04 Mitsu Evo RS AWDPirates.net
1) 72.627 + 3 2) 72.327 + 1 3) 71.430 + 2 4) 72.022 5) --


3. 22/STU Jason Patel (N) Boulder, CO - - - 72.944 902
96 BMW M3 / Kumho
1) 75.286 2) 74.836 + 1 3) 73.492 4) 72.944 5) --


4. 21/STU Brian Copher (N) Aurora, CO - - - 73.719 893
04 Subaru WRX STi decalkits.com
1) 74.951 2) 72.575 + 1 3) 72.938 + 1 4) 73.719 5) --


5. 8/STU Chuck K Fort Collins, CO - - - 77.960 844
04 Pontiac GTO / Yoko ES100
1) 79.220 2) 81.425 + 1 3) 79.475 4) 77.960 5) --


6. 11/STU Daniel Moore Thornton, CO - - - 85.942 766
04 Mitsubishi EVO RS
1) 82.187 + 2 2) DNF 3) DNF 4) 85.942 5) --



Street Touring U
Hometown (Index) Best Pts
Vehicle Sponsor

T 1. 95/STU Graeme Weston-Lewis Loveland, CO - - - 60.562 928
97 BMW M3/4 / Michelin
1) 60.783 2) 60.775 3) 60.562


T 2. 21/STU Brian Copher (N) Aurora, CO - - - 61.976 906
04 Subaru WRX STi / Potenza decalkits.com
1) 62.041 + 1 2) 62.948 + 2 3) 61.976


T 3. 26/STU Russ Johnson (N) Denver, CO - - - 62.327 901
03 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolu / Yokohama
1) DNF 2) 63.544 3) 62.327


4. 22/STU Jason Patel (N) Boulder, CO - - - 63.354 887
96 BMW M3 / Kumho
1) 63.361 2) 62.895 + 1 3) 63.354


5. 11/STU Daniel Moore Thornton, CO - - - 66.503 845
04 Mitsubishi EVO RS / Advan www.boostbuddy.com
1) 67.246 2) 65.254 + 1 3) 64.503 + 1


6. 8/STU Chuck K Fort Collins, CO - - - 67.211 836
04 Pontiac GTO / Yoko ES100
1) 69.051 2) 67.211 3) 67.762


7. 169/STU Michael Ferrara (N) Loveland, CO - - - 67.695 830
98 Audi A4 1.8t / Pirelli Ferrara Client Services
1) 70.138 2) 67.695 3) 67.422 + 1


8. 37/STU Jean Riley Edgewater, CO - - - 70.744 794
04 Subaru STi / Falken
1) 70.965 2) 70.744 3) 71.540 + 2


And this past month I was running on All-Season Tires...


Class: STREET TOURING U --------------------------------------------------------
1t 126/STU GRAEME WESTON-LEWIS LOVELAND CO - - - > 50.025 <
03 MITSUBISHI EVO THANKS RUSS!
SAT: 1) 50.810 + 2 2) 50.491 3) 50.025 4) 50.833 + 1

2t 26/STU RUSS JOHNSON DENVER CO - - - > 50.477 <
03 MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO YOKOHAMA AWDPIRATES.NET
SAT: 1) 61.533 2) 51.440 + 3 3) 50.477 4) 51.708

3. 21/STU BRIAN COPHER AURORA CO - - - > 51.341 <
04 SUBARU WRX STI POTENZA AWDPIRATES.NET
SAT: 1) 52.491 2) 52.468 3) 52.992 4) 51.341

4. 121/STU RYAN CLARK BROOMFIELD CO - - - > 52.476 <
04 SUBARU IMPREZA WR AWDPIRATES.NET, INSERT WITTY C
SAT: 1) 52.942 2) 52.476 3) 52.819 4) 52.590

5. 8/STU CHUCK K FORT COLLINS CO - - - > 56.040 <
04 PONTIAC GTO ALL-SEASON
SAT: 1) 56.040 2) 56.926 3) DNF 4) 56.086

6. 37/STU JEAN RILEY EDGEWATER CO - - - > 57.108 <
04 SUBARU STI FALKEN
SAT: 1) 59.340 2) 57.108 3) 58.919 4) 58.582

.

 

hmmm, i am wondering how I am going to do this year w/ Solo-II. I am going to run SM w/ Street tires (at least for now). When I can get some new wheels I will get either slicks or r compound and run reg SM. This will be my first year of running SCCA so don't expect much out of me .

BTW, if someone wants to come to KC that has experience in SCCA and run in my car that might be doable BUT you will have to help me get the thing dialed in better than I can. You can see from my sig what I have done so far and there are a couple of thing's that are done/soon to be done that aren't added yet.

 

Been runnun my 06 in auot- cross here in north ala - nashville area this year and am very happy with its performance. I have Motegi racing wheels 18-8 40mm offset and Kumho v710 tires . This thing is unbelievable in the corners for such a heavy car. I think the steering on the 06 is a lot tighter than previuos.

 

In my experience the autocross cars that have the most success are ones that can control rebound rates on the shocks. A change that actually works the LOW speed rebound rates is were you get the extra time difference in a quality setup. As far as exiting the corners with the GTO, you need a superior low speed compression setting to help keep the entire car from spinning out under power.

A single adjustable unit you have to check what the adjustments are controlling. For example the DMS 40mm units will adjust rebound rates simultaneously with each compression setting. The theory being the stiffer you want the compression, the slower the rebound rate will be to offer better high speed characteristics and stability.

The 50mm Drummond Motor Sports shocks are purely for competion use. This is were the tuning comes into play as you can control weight tranfer, roll, etc a lot easier with the seperate rebound adjusment available....

Something to ponder over
-mark

 

Just to resurrect this thread from the dead - ran as a novice in the Finger Lakes region under STU, and had some issues with getting clean runs - and my pace was well off:

13 N stu 76 Julius C 04 Pontiac GTO 71.108 / 61.619 / 59.546 / 61.093 / 59.043 Overall 48.415 0.178

This was on a course where the A Stock Evo was putting down 47-sec runs. I ran the OEM tires (33/37 PSI F/R) with very minimal rolling up front (had the tires crayoned). Aside from more seat time in a driver's school :gears: - anyone have any idea where the next cost-effective mods would be? I'd think tires are a safe bet, but I'm not sure.

Also, for those others also doing this, what other car prep do you do? I'd think reducing weight is a good thing, but it seemed like the back end got looser after I removed the spare.

 

Just to resurrect this thread from the dead - ran as a novice in the Finger Lakes region under STU, and had some issues with getting clean runs - and my pace was well off:


This was on a course where the A Stock Evo was putting down 47-sec runs. I ran the OEM tires (33/37 PSI F/R) with very minimal rolling up front (had the tires crayoned). Aside from more seat time in a driver's school :gears: - anyone have any idea where the next cost-effective mods would be? I'd think tires are a safe bet, but I'm not sure.

Also, for those others also doing this, what other car prep do you do? I'd think reducing weight is a good thing, but it seemed like the back end got looser after I removed the spare.

not too bad. i would say alignment. i can look up what mine is set to later. i am running SM/ST class due to mods. our regions site is here:http://www.kcrscca.org/. i am not doing too bad consitering that this is my first year doing autox and i am running dead all-season tires w/ absolutely NO grip. i am going to get r-comps next year and that should change a bunch of stuff.

 

not too bad. i would say alignment. i can look up what mine is set to later. i am running SM/ST class due to mods. our regions site is here:http://www.kcrscca.org/. i am not doing too bad consitering that this is my first year doing autox and i am running dead all-season tires w/ absolutely NO grip. i am going to get r-comps next year and that should change a bunch of stuff.

Not too bad - considering I'm 12 seconds behind a stock Evo... lol (the 48.415 was a pax-fudged number)