There's no key at all. There are several DIY kits using methods to pin them. I know BlownChevy has a kit which is popular, also popular is the one for the ProCharger and ECS sells one too. You either have to drill perpendicular to the crank, or with the axis of the crank depending on the kit.

 

There are basically two kits to do this. One requires to drill perpendicular to the crank and the other requires to drill at the seam between the crank and the pulley, both in place. You do this on the spot. In both cases you need to remove the crank bolt. The one at the seam is the easiest. The one that you need to drill perpendicular is a little bit more intricate, difficult and risky to do; moreover, it requires for you to index the crank pulley at a machine shop to allow clearance for the pin, which is installed first on the crank. The only damper that comes already iondexed is the ATI damper for which the perpendicular pinning kit is intended. All other dampers use the one at the seam.

Let me give you a word of advice. First, lets assume that you would like to install a blower cam, then this is the time to do it. Second, I am of the opinion that once you start adding power it is time to get a Fluidampr. Third, some people swap cank pulleys for a different diameter like the ECS crank pulley in order to modify boost this way. I tell you this because for all of the cases above you need to replace the crank bolt with a fresh one because it is a TTY bolt. Please, do yourself a favor and don't even think of using an ARP bolt. Since you want to avoid repeated crank bolt swaps then you should plan ahead and do as much as you can and can afford in only one shot.

In view of the above, if you have any future plans of doing a cam and or swapping pulleys for whatever reason then delay pinning the crank pulley at this time. For a simple Maggie you do not need it. I only needed it when I did cam, pulley swaps and the like. While my Maggie was optherwise stock I never had an issue.

Take it easy and good luck.

 

Lancy,

You the man. Well written advise. Finally! Much appreciated.

As far as pinning. . . Cross drilling the thing just seems to be a horrible idea to me. Being a gun maker and CNC machinist for the past 15 years, I've yet to see anything that is cross drilled that lasts for any length of time. I've seen holes elongate, pins that shear at the focal point of the applied load, etc. . .

All of which creates a mess down the road. I've blue printed several old school Melling SBC oil pumps by installing a roll pin parallel to the drive shaft/gear seam. Never had a failure and some of these engines were 10K rpm B street roadster Comp Eliminator cars.

I guess that means it works!

If I understood you correctly, you said to NOT use an ARP fastener. Is it a TTY bolt as well? Can you recommend an alternative that is
reusable?

Again, appreciate the help guys.

Chad

 

TTY is a VERY relative term when you are talking about a bolt that is designed to be torqued to over 250ftlb. I would personally never crossdrill, as a good seam hole with a pin would be much easier and be more than sufficient. I have re-used crank pulley bolts with NO problems MANY times.

 

Longitudinal pinning is preferable to perpendicular, IMHO. The sheer cross section is much larger, spreading out the force over a larger area, in addition to being less traumatic to the crank. I would recommend an ATI damper over a Fluidampr. Some crank manufacturers will not honor their warranty on a fluid type damper. ATI will do an 8 rib at no extra charge on special order. Speed Inc. got me mine in a matter of days. It will work fine with a 6 rib belt, but the room for upgrade is there if it's needed down the line. ATI's are SFI approved and rebuildable.

 

About the crank bolt:

If pinning the damper to the crank is all you will do then there is no need to remove the damper. You remove the old bolt and replace with a fresh one. What is the cost of a new TTY crank bolt? Less than $5.00. Friends, when in doubt play it safe. I am always bewildered by the back and forth arguments about what is and what is not a TTY bolt when the cost of replacing bolts and the safety insurance further down the road are all way out of proportion in relation to neglible cost. Replacing the TTY bolt is the way to go. It is the reasonable thing to do. It is what the GTO manual says and you should do.

If you were to be swaping the damper or having to remove it for a cam swap or just any other reason then you better replace the crank bolt. Why? Because the proper procedure for installing the damper calls for installing the damper to a certain position as measured from the crank frontal edge with a damper installation tool and then using the old TTY bolt to torque the damper to its final position. Once you do this, the old bolt is removed, discarded and the fresh new TTY crank bolt is placed and torqued to specs. That is the right way of doing it and anything else is some kind of shortcut. Remember, the path to hell is through taking shortcuts in life.

About the ARP crank bolt:

I am no expert and can only tell you what I have read here and there and about all the horror stories on this type of bolt. The ARP may have its intended uses, but in our cars the experience is that it is too hard. If it gets stuck or broken inside the crank you in for a heep of trouble. Removing that bolt or what may be left of it from the crank often results in severe damage which may lead to having to disassemble the engine to replace the crank. Again, truth is the OEM bolt works fine and there is no reason whatsoever to replace it for an ARP bolt, which may or may not lead you to dissaster.

About the Fluidampr vs the ATI damper:

I have no hard facts to go either way over the other. Nevertheless, the reasons I chose the Fluiddapr over the ATI are few. First, the Fluidampr is easier to install on accoutnt of the pinning method. Second, it is the damper Procharger recommends along with so many supercharger installers. Third, along with the ATI it is referenced in all the literature that I have read.. Fourth, the ATI is a multiple rubber damper, which to me it means that the frequencies it can absorb as well defined as it is a solid rubber thing. The Fluidampr also has a rubber core, but it is surrounded by a silicone based fluid. The claim is that this fluid imersed damper is able to absorb a wider assort of frequencies than a simple solid damper.

What is this frequency thing all about? Inside the combustion chamber an explosion actually occurs under controlled conditions. This is in fact a sudden energy release. Energy is a mathematical function of frequency. The higher the frecuancy the higher the energy. This energy is released in different forms like heat, sound and it is also transfereed directly to the metal parts associated to the engine. The piston has a connecting rod which for the most part is angled in relation to the top piston surface. When energy is absorbed by the piston head it travels downwards and hits the connecting rod creating a suden torque type slam. All this intricate bunch of words can be resumed by saying that the connecting rod vibrates just like a pipe vibrates when you hit it with a hammer. This vibration is energy travelling through the metal structure, which in turn is tranferred to the bearing and then to the crank all the way to the frontal tip of the crank where the crank bolt is. If this energy is not released somehow it may bounce back and encounter other incoming frequencies from the opposite direction. If these frequencies encounter each other in a manner called "in phase" they add up and create a mosnter slam on your crank. This could be fatal for your crank and bearings. Detonation inside the combustion chamber is similar in many respects.

The damper is just a sink for all that energy, but energy is defined by its frequency. A solid rubber damper can be tuned to absorb certain frequencies, but not all, precisely because it is a solid. The ATI damper may be real good at absorbing some specific frequencies, while the Fluidampr it is claimed has a wider range of frequency absortion. I am not going to argue one way or the other. I do not have the scientific data to do so. I am just going for what the manufactures claim. What I would recommend is to improve your crank damping capability if you are going to increase power.

I have read that dampers are application specific for a certain range of engine Hp and Torque. I do not know what's behind Mistermike's claim that certain crank manufactures will not honor crank warranty with a Fluidampr. He obviously knows something I do not. What I do know is that dampers are frequency related. Perhaps, and it is up to him to thorw insight on the subject, the cases he is referring to are related to 1000 hp and up engines where the Fluidampr is out of range due to the shear power of them engines. For our everyday GTO's which do not reach them power levels, the very same high pitch dampers used in such applications do not work, simply because they are tuned out of range. The fact that a specific damper works for a 1500 hp enigne does not mean that it works for a 400 hp engine and viceversa. Dampers are frequency dependant. I think I uderstand that dampers are not for universal application.

Watch out and do not buy a damper which is out of range from your engine. That is as far as I can take you in this discussion. I am sure there are others which know much more and can throw some light into this subject.

 

About the crank bolt:

If pinning the damper to the crank is all you will do then there is no need to remove the damper. You remove the old bolt and replace with a fresh one. What is the cost of a new TTY crank bolt? Less than $5.00. Friends, when in doubt play it safe. I am always bewildered by the back and forth arguments about what is and what is not a TTY bolt when the cost of replacing bolts and the safety insurance further down the road are all way out of proportion in relation to neglible cost. Replacing the TTY bolt is the way to go. It is the reasonable thing to do. It is what the GTO manual says and you should do.

If you were to be swaping the damper or having to remove it for a cam swap or just any other reason then you better replace the crank bolt. Why? Because the proper procedure for installing the damper calls for installing the damper to a certain position as measured from the crank frontal edge with a damper installation tool and then using the old TTY bolt to torque the damper to its final position. Once you do this, the old bolt is removed, discarded and the fresh new TTY crank bolt is placed and torqued to specs. That is the right way of doing it and anything else is some kind of shortcut. Remember, the path to hell is through taking shortcuts in life.

Ok forgive my stupidity here, but are you saying if you just want to pin the thing, don't--and just put a new bolt on?

Anyhew, I agree with the longitudinal pinning method.

 

Not at all. What I am saying is that in order to pin the damper the crank bolt has to be removed and therefore replaced. That is just too much effort and not worth the risk and wear to do at this time. He has not added any additional significant power, he has no problem at present. Therefore, he has no real need to pin the damper at this point. Why do it? Why risk anything? He should wait till he does some power adding mods like a cam or swithching pulleys or maybe having to replace the oil pump or something that calls for the removal of that crank bolt and then pin it all in one shot. It is most unlikely that he will encounter damper spinning with the Maggie alone. I mean, if he does then he would have to pin; but, till there is a real need just keep one step away from doing it. I ran my Maggie for over a year without any issues. I did run into issues when I swapped the cam, not before.

 

Ok, I can agree with that line of thought.

However, I think this is the same guy who said he has $10k to blow and he was going to do FI & a cam. Thus, the question.

 

Looks like I'll be pinning the dampner.

I just fired off a note to Mr. Ed regarding what ammounts to an entirely new valve train.

Roller rockers, the whole bit. This also includes a fluid dampner.

Having worked on 11K rpm C altered Comp Eliminator Engines, I have a decent grasp on the need to manage crankshaft harmonics. Funny though, we'd pull the outer ring and elastometer off of a factory GM balancer and run without. I guess you can do that when you run the car maybe 10 times in a weekend and then tear it down and replace all the consumable parts every week.

I sure wish I had their money. . .

My biggest dilema right now is rocker arms. Crane Gold variables sound interesting. I am also liking the Comp Cams shaft mounts for the obivous reason that they won't move around.

Crane says that their rollers are quiet in the interest of keeping the knock sensors from going into cardiac arrest.

Don't know about the Comp Cams rockers and I'm wondering if this is real, or just creative marketing.

Anyone have any experience. I'm getting off track a little, but what the hell, it's my post.

Thanks for everyone's effort and time.

C

PS. That 10K is about burned up already. Ordered my meth injection and 3k worth of Wilwood brakes two days ago. Add the maggie on it and I've already gone over.

Better to live rich than die rich right?

 

Welcome to the boat.

 

Any body know what size Torx Socket is needed for the ARP bolt? The Maggie pin kit comes with the ARP Torx bolt too. 3/4" drive, what size? The biggest I have is E20 1/2" drive and its not even close!
I just called ARP and they didn't know the socket size either. They gave me these torque specs:

Torque Specs: 235 ftlbs w/loctite
246 ftlbs w/ 30w motor oil

1 1/16" 12 point socket, Ed's the man!

 

My ARP bolt has a 27mm 12 point head. Regular 27mm socket ( this may also be very close to an imperial size too )

Ive re-used the stock bolts before with my pinned crank...and never had any problems, although obviously it isnt reccomended. Cant honestly say Ive ever torqued one to spec either. I just do them up pretty damn tight !!!!!

Factory torque settings just seems so high ????

Surely part of the reason it is so high, is because the pulley isnt keyed ?? Once keyed or pinned...the pulley cannot rotate, so does it require such a high torque ?

 

Anybody want to sell me the drill fixture? I can source the drill bit and pin. $100 seems a bit steep to me but I realize that people have to make a living.

 

$100? Where? I paid 130 for mine from Jegs.

 

I wish I had seen this earlier fellas... especially those that are buying drilling fixtures. As lanceygto knows, I will lend out my ProCharger Drilling fixture for a few bucks plus the user pay shipping both ways. It's already been to Puerto Rico and Georgia. I supply a drill bit as well and can get a pin when needed... anyone who needs this in the future let me know. I do what I can to lend a helping hand!

Here's a couple pics from when I pinned my Fluidampr and crank:

Fixture bolted on:

Drilling:

Pin installed:

New crank bolt.... $3.09 I believe was the cost of this TTY bolt:

 

Forgive me if this is a dumb question cause I havent looked at mine but in that first picture : you just put the new Fluid Dampner on with the old bolt and then drilled right through it, removed it, added the pin and put a new bolt in?

 

Looks simple enough.

One question. Does the instructions say to use a solid dowel pin?

I'd of figured that a Split roll pin would have been suggested. Applies tension to the parts for a positive mechanical lock.

Hmph, learn something every day. . .

 

It's a solid stainless steel dowel that comes with the kit so yes, a solid dowel should be used. A roll pin is weak in comparison and would twist too much. Think of it like this; on an older keyed crank, the key way isn't hollow or split is it? ldfogey:

 

So that piece in the picture that looks like a big washer is actually the fixture?

 

Yes. Here is a pic of just the fixture:

I have this sitting on my desk for these occasions.. LoL Really I do, because I figure I could send it out at any time to be used.... LoL

 

Thanks, pictures helped alot. I order the crank for my camaro with 2 key ways already in it so doing it yourself is new to me.

Did you order the kit seperately or did you get it at the same time as your Pro Charger?

 

It came with the 8-rib, D-1SC ProCharger kit... for higher boost applications.

 

Im not refusing your kind offer......but I will say a lot of the maths would be wasted on me, and go straight over my head.

If it can be put in simple terms, by all means elaborate.

But with GM using a soft iron crank, and regular steel bolt....obviously the torque they specify must be within safe limits for both materials.

Im using the ARP bolt, and now a forged steel crank ( although did briefly have to revert back to stock for a temp build )

But either way, despite not using factory torque settings, and not using new bolts every time....I have never had a bolt come loose. I do always apply thread lock to the threads too though.
I still do them up pretty damn tight, with a 2ft breaker bar...just no idea if its factory torque spec or not. Id say not though.

 

When I had my motor built, I had the Eagle crank and ATI pulley double keyed. I would recommend the same for anyone doing a buildup with a crank driven supercharger.

 

I read most of this. To make sure I got it right, I am posting the question...

I just bought a maggie. If I am running standard pulley's NO need to pin the crank. Right?

tas

 

It would be prudent to pin the crank during installation.

.

 

Just use the Magnusun pin kit? Or?

tas

 

Just use the Magnusun pin kit?

That's the route I took, yes... got the kit through BlownChevy.

.

 

As Mr. Henderson said.

You cannot go wrong and a little inconvenience of removing the parts to get access to it now far outweighs the anguish of dealing with a spun crank snout later.

Just a thought.

 

Maggie pin kit on ECS pulley ?

Is there any reason a Maggie Pinning kit will not work with the ECS pulley. I want to hear from someone who has used the Maggie pinning kit with the ECS pulley kit. I've gotten conflicting information and I'm not sure if there is a lack if material on the ECS hub that won't really work that well with the longitudinal drilling that the maggie kit is configured for.

Any ECS pulley kit guys ever pin their pulley with the Maggie pin kit?

BlownChevy, been trying to get in touch with you.

 

I've got another thread out there on this but I can't seem to get a definitive answer on whether the ECS pulley kit will work with the Maggie Pin kit.

Surely someone out there (who has done this and not just guessing) can tell me if the two can be combined. Is there anything dimensionally or due to the configuration of the ECS kit that prevents the use of the Maggie pin kit? Maybe something like lack of material on the diameter (too thin) on the hub?

I wish I had the parts in front of me.